It Takes A Village

Hey Trisha,
In response to your article and challenging us to expand our circles, I do strive to do that. I have done this by looking at my comfort zones. I feel comfortable in a laid back relaxed setting and am not keen on weighing down my plate with "doing this and doing that". Therefore, having friends who are more organized and into "order" is a small circle that I don't go into very often. But I do. It gains me a different perspective on what people are comfortable in in these type of environments and how far in contrast their world is from mine. I am a hairdresser by trade and I am in University after a B.A/B.Ed. I'm almost done. As an adult student I've discovered that I love learning (in school that is). I find that with the knowledge that I've gained, it has empowered me and helped me to gain confidence in myself and my expression. As a hairdresser I volunteer my service, on my own incentive, at the local homeless shelter. I have educated friends whose lifestyles are a whole lot different than mine. Yet, we still enjoy one another's company. These type of friends, I find, show me that I am worthy of a good life and the bounties that this world offers. I've grown up feeling otherwise. When my parents divorced, I grew up with a father who was not really there for me. I grew up with a mother who spewed her bitterness and anger towards my father. As an adult child, I learned to make peace with both. With this, I was able to enjoy unconditional love with my dad the last few years of his life. I am grateful, eternally, to myself. To my dad, for telling me, even if it was only once, that he loved me too. I have a story to share, about my life with my dad, from my perspective. I believe that what I have to share is important, and if it is as important as I think it is, that Our Creator will work with me to see that it is handled as it needs to be handled. Take care Trish. Keep up the info.

Ponys, congratulations for changing your life around, it sounds like you have made some huge changes. I too would challenge people to open their social circles up, more importantly, open their minds up and let people in without passing judgement before you know the person.
You, bring up another very interesting issue, one that I too have experience with and one that I'm quite suprised I haven't yet seen written about here on Orato. You talk about the inability to access your child because your ex is judgemental and not forgiving about your previous lifestyle. You also allude to the fact that this woman 'wasnt that different from you'. It sounds like you were both able to change your lives but for some reason she wont accept that you have. If you have changed your life the way you say and you are living a clean and sober crime free life you deserve access to your child and more importantly, your child deserves to have access to his or her father. I myself am a single mother and I remember how hard it was when my ex and I first split up and I was alone with a 17 month old baby. Everything was difficult, I broke up with him but I was still angry and didn't want him to move on and be happy. I wanted him to suffer a little, or at least stay single and alone for what I felt was an appropriate length of time. Instead, he had a girlfriend before I even moved out and then another one shortly after that. I was livid that he wanted my daughter to be around these "strange" women! I lost sleep at night, I fretted, I worried and I let it all get the best of me. To this day I have no idea why. I dont know what my concern was and I dont know why I wasted so much energy on something so negative. I never ever denied my ex access to his daughter, I have never ever made negative comments to my daughter about her father, quite the opposite in fact. I bit my tongue many many times while I made excuses for her fathers bad behaviour. One day I realized the insanity of my stress and I realized that no matter what happens in life I am my daughter's only mother, period. I reflected on my own feelings towards my mother and although our relationship is far from perfect, I love her and no one in the world could ever replace her. I had to accept that my daughter feels the same way about me and the feelings I was having were feelings of insecurity, jealousy and fear. These feelings were very real for me but I knew they were not based in reality. At that moment I decided to acknowledge the power of mother child relationship, I decided to always take the high road and always do what I know in my heart is right and as long as I do that and as long as my intentions are always honourable and respectful of my daughter, everything will be absolutely fine.
It is now 10 years later and my ex and I have an amazing young woman (yikes) for a daughter. She gives both of our families absolute joy and happiness. My daughter has a family that seems to grow every year. Her dad married his 2nd girlfriend about 7 years ago. Now my daughter has a step mother and 2 older step brothers. She has aunts and uncles and cousins (something her dad and I couldn't offer with our very small families). My daughter is blessed with more love than she realizes and I am blessed with an ex who now, thanks to his wife, is able to be the father that I think he always knew he could be but didn't know how. I refer to his wife as my "step-wife", she thinks it's funny, I'm actually quite serious about it. When I'm arranging for my daughter to see her dad I talk to his wife, I make all the plans through his wife. Sometimes she'll phone to ask me something and we're on the phone for an hour! I dont talk to anyone for an hour! My daughter see's healthy communication between adults who have one common goal, to make her life as happy, healthy and blessed as possible.
Knowing that I played a huge role in nurturing a healthy strong relationship between my daughter and her dad is truly one of the things I am most proud of in my life. I dont know if your ex reads this site or maybe you can print this off and give it to her. I would say to her that encouraging a relationship between your child and their father is the most freeing and rewarding thing you will ever do. Believe me, your child will love you for it. Your child will never grow up and say, "Mom, thanks for keeping dad out of my life for so many years, I'm really glad you made me feel guilty for wanting to know the man who helped give me life."

I definitely have plenty to say about the previous comments, but I will hold back on some of my therapeutic babble in order not to bore the readers. The most significant factor in why a child will "choose" to alienate a parent, even in a situation of abandonment, is due to the circumstances they are influenced with. Another words, a child will 'learn' to dislike or even hate a parent when they are bombarded with negative comments, feelings and emotions surrounding the parent. I myself have not done specific research in this area but I have certainly read an enormous amount of the research and an almost unanimous fact is that a child will maintain "unconditional" love for their parents despite their misgivings. It is only via influence that a child will learn to hate what they perceive as their parent and that person's faults. Consider the situation outlined by Ms. Baptie. She has 3 children by 3 different fathers. Only one of these children has "chosen" to have nothing to do with their father. I would be interested in knowing all 3 sides of this story, not just one mother's version. No offence to the writer, but in my many years of working in family therapy I have never once seen a situation that is exactly as Ms. Baptie has described it. Families separate all the time (too often in fact) and also too often one parent abandones the children (usually the father). This in and of itself does not lead to a child 'wanting nothing to do with' the parent who left. Nor does the fact that the absent parent may be making extremely bad life choices, drugs, alcohol, criminal behaviour, etc.. As stated before, children have an unconditional innate love for their parents that is not easily taken away. There is however, a sydrome called Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS). This is the systematic denigration of one parent by the other with the intent of alienating the child against the other parent. The purpose of the alienation is usually to gain or retain custody without the involvement of the father. The alienation usually extends to the father's family and friends as well. PAS is by far the number one factor why a child will "refuse" to see an absent parent. It is only with long term in depth therapy that this issue can come to the surface and then be dealt with. It is unfortunate that like many syndromes, PAS is stigmatized and in turn parents are extremely resistant to therapy and to the final realization of the condition. PAS is in many ways a mothers (& sometimes fathers) instinctual response to what they percieve as a threat to their relationship with their child. Ms. Baptie's response to support her childs "right to not see their father" and to "not force a relationship to make my ex feel better" are comments very in line with PAS. Being respectful of your childs feelings and choices means exploring those feelings and choices with your child, and in a case such as this it means exploring these choices with the assistance of a professional. Assuming there is no threat of violence or harm, it is up to parents to encourage, nurture and support each other in rearing a child whether they are a couple or not. In order to do this each party must first deal with their own emotions around the issue that has brought them to where they and their child are currently at. We are all the product of two people, a mother and a father. The family composition may change once, twice, ten times or never during the course of our lives, but our biology never changes. As a professional I would tell Ms. Baptie to seek out counselling for both you and your child and ultimately your child's father (if he is willing). No professional would counsel a parent to "support" the indifferent feelings of their child towards either parent, that is simply not ethical. A person, child or adult, needs to properly work through their feelings and get to the bottom of their anger in order to effectively move on. Having a mother stand beside you and cheer you on to dislike or have no interest in the other parent is not healthy, nor does it set a good example.

Kenneth, I find your comment very interesting and informative and if you read my recent post you will not be suprised that I agree with you completely. I've never heard of PAS but as a social worker I've certainly seen it in action. Thanks for the informative comment.
Based on Trisha's most recent post, me thinketh there is some major jealousy and denial going on here. What part of being on Orato is keeping yours and your childrens personal lives private?? Surely you must realize that you have exposed many personal things on this site including things that your children may have to be confronted with and personal things about your children, like your childs feelings for their father. As an adult and a parent I am the one who protects and takes charge of what my child has to deal with. My child should never have to answer to someone about my past, no matter what my 'needs' are. My childs needs come first and if it means not exposing my past publicly as therapy then I will have to find a different route to heal myself. As you see I agree 110% with keeping ours and our childrens personal lives private, but I dont think you should fool yourself and think you have done that. Once you put something out there in cyberspace it doesn't just go away.

I have always promised myself that I will never end a conversation at a level that will compromise my personal integrity. Therefore, I will thank you for pointing out the obvious, I dont know you, obviously you have a life outside of Orato and clearly you are a very private person.
I do not comment on Orato to incite rage and disdain. I write because I have knowledge of or experience in a particular area. Perhaps, like yourself, I was simply making a flippant "joking" remark that was a little misunderstood. Had your read my previous posts you would have a better understanding of where my heart is and what I am like. I previously responded to a few of the Pickton stories and mentioned you in a positive light and thanking you for your contributions. This issue is close to my heart like it is to many others. You chose not to respond to those comments, no thanks, not even an acknowledgment. It wasn't until I wrote something that was critical that you chose to respond, perhaps you believe that you are entitled to only positive feedback because you have overcome so much. The bottom line is you put yourself out there in a public forum and you will be subject to both positive and negative feedback. To handle both with the same amount of grace will be the challenge that only a few can accomplish. I apologize for inciting the rage and I hope that you are able to complete your reporting tasks with dignity and pride. Good luck.

Heather, I am curious as to whom you are directing your comment to. I have re read all the posts and I have to honestly say that the most anger that I sense comes from Trisha, no one else. I think if you re read my posts you will certainly see that I am not telling anyone how to parent, nor am I commenting on anyone's children, I agree, that is off limits. We're adults communicating, or that is what I expected here. We have opinions and experiences that differ. I have read many many controversial comments on Orato, many that have offended myself and others a great deal. You once told me that encouraging conversations and even pushing the limits can be good. As far as borderline bullying, that is really uncalled for. I was taking part in a conversation with 3 other Orato readers, Trisha was the only one who chose to respond, the others didn't. I did not ask Trish about her children or their fathers nor about how she chooses to parent. She offered a lot of information about her situation and I responded, again, I thought that was the point. I certainly did not bully anyone, please, that is diminishing the impact of what victims of real bullying go through. With the exception of my off the cuff remark "me thinketh there is jealousy and anger" I do not see an example of where I personalized or projected my own issues on Trisha. (???) I expressed my opinions to anyone reading these posts and I was hopeful that at least one of the other two would respond. I shared a lot about my person experiences in order to hopefully encourage someone to hang in there and to maybe make choices that go against what their instinct tells them. I find myself once again discouraged by your comments Heather. I encourage you to re read what has been written and really think about how these posts are 'bullying', crossing boundaries (remember, we set our own boundaries), remarking on Trisha's children, their father, her parenting, etc etc etc.. Why is this not just a discussion like the many others that I have read? I'll be interested to see how this sort of censorship flushes out on Orato.

I basically just wanted to clarify that your comment wasn't just directed at me as it was a very strong comment and frankly quite offensive. I thank you for the clarification.
Also, wasn't it clear that I acknowledged that my comment may have been seen as "personal"? That was why I quoted myself, I'm not clear on why you reiterrated what I said. I was actually asking for "other" examples as I'm still not terribly clear on what illicited such a response considering some of the nasty comments I've read on the Orato forum. Either way, the clarification was helpful and I'm sure you will continue to monitor to ensure healthy respectful conversation.