Capricorn
If you turn off your television, walk away from the computer, and go listen to your neighbors and local business owners, you may very well find that the pundits are wrong about that. The third and final presidential debate might as well be called: "The Joe the Plumber Debate."
It looks as if Sen. Obama may have created his own October surprise ... against himself.
As with the previous debate, I don't think Sen. Obama did very well last night. As I watched the two candidates side by side (C-SPAN shows debates in a split-screen format, very fair to the candidates), Sen. McCain appeared confident and robust and Sen. Obama actually looked a bit sallow to me.
More than anything though, Sen. Obama was unable to charm his way out of exposing his socialist ideals and intentions, and all the world got to see it for themselves. He stumbled and stuttered quite a bit more than he usually does and he appeared to blush a few times, although overall he controlled his demeanor very well as usual.
But I thought it looked almost like Obama gagged a little when Sen. McCain brought up "Joe the Plumber." After all, Obama obviously remembered the discussion with Joe.
Astonishingly, Sen. Obama is actually trying to turn this blunder around in his favor, instead of letting it go and hoping people will forget about it. He and his running mate are out on the campaign trail today actually mocking Joe the Plumber. Sen. Obama said, "How many plumbers do you know who make a quarter of a million dollars a year?" and Sen. Biden has the audacity to say that there weren't any plumbers like that in his neighborhood.
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Comments
Re: The "Joe The Plumber" Debate
By SmartCookie, October 17, 2008 at 13:58Hi Melkor! :-) See reply below.
Re: The "Joe The Plumber" Debate
By Melkor, October 17, 2008 at 10:45Hi SC,
It never ceases to amaze me how short sighted the political rhetoric is. Obama will have us believe (and I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt) that 95% of Americans don’t earn $250,000 a year and won’t pay more tax. Indeed, most of these folks will get a tax cut. So don’t worry, only the greedy corporations will get taxed, they can afford it.
Please superimpose this stance in the actual world – and I’m even going to ignore the most obvious flaw in this argument – your article spoke to the small business owners who actually keep the economy moving, and I’m at my wits end driving home that point, and you’re better equipped to handle that one than I am anyway.
So, if I am a major corporation and see a tax increase, I am not without options. This point gets lost in mere oratory – are we to expect then that these companies will throw up their hands and give in? No, they have options, and LEGAL obligations to their shareholders – they must do all they can to turn a PROFIT (defined as an increase against a temporal range). As this corporation, to cover this new ‘cost’ (which is exactly what it is, an increase in the cost of doing business) I can increase my prices and pass this tax on to the consumer (so yes, at the end of the day 100% of Americans pay more), I can relocate overseas (usually associated with a sweetheart deal – NO TAXES OF ANY KIND – OR LABOR STANDARDS – from the new host government – costing all Americans and others), I can lay off employees and let the social safety network take care of them (who pays for this – oh yes, we have all this new tax revenue so who cares?)... do any of these options sound appealing?
I wish McCain would spend time attacking these outdated and pedestrian arguments and STOP trying to appeal to the stupid. Reagan won, not because he appealed to the sh*t kickers (Republicans have these guys anyway) but to the intellect of everyone in the middle. And on some level Obama is doing just this – as antiquated as his policies are, the packaging is stellar, and in North America and Europe we’re all about the packaging – more important than the product, so the marketing people tell me. And frankly, if McCain does end up losing this election, it is his own fault.
Re: The "Joe The Plumber" Debate
By Melkor, October 17, 2008 at 14:17Hi SC,
Regarding my assessing blame to McCain if he loses – he got pretty worked up about Ayers and ACORN associations and tried time and time again to ‘connect’ with the average Joe (the plumber); I would prefer if he got as impassioned about inflation and what the net effect of a tax increase would have on the domestic (and, frankly, global) economy in terms of the employment rate.
Further, most all the significant Bills in the past 20 years which required non-partisanship have Mr. McCain’s name on them – get excited over this! List them! Good Lord, I remember a couple years ago watching the Daily Show and Jon Stewart told McCain (his guest) that he would back him for President in a New York minute – Mr. Stewart, while exceedingly witty, could never be confused with a Goldwater Republican and seems to have disregarded that message – probably because what made McCain so attractive to moderates has been lost in this campaign. To be sure, most of this was done to win the nomination, but I was expecting a big swing back to the centre, which has not yet happened to my mind, and is the reason he is trailing.
Meanwhile, Obama changed his tax plan several times and his timetable for Iraq even more often – this is him moving to the centre (well, 16 months versus immediately looks like a centrist position, relatively speaking) – something smart politicians do to win elections. Clinton (Bill) was the master at this. And W. did the same thing in 2000 (although certainly NOT in ’04). I don’t know SC, but McCain has to answer for his staffing choices, and he should really pay attention to who has his ear.
Re: The "Joe The Plumber" Debate
By SmartCookie, October 17, 2008 at 15:02Hey Melkor,
Yes, right you are on all counts. And I agree with you wholeheartedly about the better tactics. I thought McCain's right turn in the campaign was a mistake at the time and I still do. Their values don't resonate well with most of us, but the economy does and tax-and-spend is the wrong answer in my view. Just look at the devastation which reckless spending has has already wrought. But for whatever reason the decision was made to court the base. Lol, prolly had a lot to do with their vicious and very loud threats to vote against McCain in this election if they didn't get their little way.
Ultimately, McCain is responsible for that decision, but it doesn't seem or feel very genuine from him and I think that's at least part of the reason he has trouble connecting on those fronts. I agree most especially that his genuine appeal to the middle is one of his greatest strengths. He seems to be relying too much on the fact that his record is so stellar, and is assuming that people are familiar with it. I don't think as many people are as well informed as you are - unfortunately. I have written many "protests" about the way his campaign is being run.
Funny, the Dems started out in devastating turmoil, now it seems that the Reps are in those shoes. Makes Obama's case of "I'm not George Bush" an even easier sell to an under-informed and weary public. And we're all going to pay. But McCain is human just like the rest of us. I have to give him his "props" for continuing to keep this from being a Dem-dominated slaughter.
Thanks for highlighting so many good points!
Re: The "Joe The Plumber" Debate
By SmartCookie, October 17, 2008 at 13:59Hi Melkor,
Thank you so much for your comment. You are so right in your assessment of the corporate dilemma. Yes, 100% of Americans will be worse off as the victims of income redistribution, especially the poor. No, let's not fix any of the problems we created, lets make them worse by throwing even more government at what the government has already screwed up. And while we're at it, let's just throw efficiency and common sense and individuality out the window, not to mention our Constitution. Seriously, can you name anything the government does well? A lot of people like to point out things which have been done wrong in the past as their argument FOR voting for Obama, who will also do the wrong thing. Logic, please? (Or as they say on South Park, It does NOT make sense!) ;-)
I don't know how many of my other articles you've seen here at orato.com, but I write about how I feel about personal responsibility and have posted a couple of those articles here. I don't believe we should expect (or allow) our government to do these things for us.
But no, instead we have arguments over which type of socialism we want - liberal socialism or conservative socialism. I don't get it. You are absolutely spot on about the true cost of Obama's plans for our economy ... let the inflation begin! The markets are already terrified of an Obama economy and the investors and corporations are kinda heading for the hills. Local businesses, which were already struggling, are closing left and right, yet there are still commercial projects being built everywhere I look. Maybe we should just put trees back on those sites instead or level the buildings and put solar fields in their place. Then we'd be getting somewhere, I think.
Yep, it never ceases to amaze me how short-sighted the political rhetoric is.
I kinda disagree with you about it being McCain's own fault if he loses, though. This is the Dem's year - everyone agrees about that. Obama should have had an easy walk-in. I actually think that McCain's position is a real testament to the candidate - not his campaign. I mean, just look at the gutters the left have to stoop to in order to make so many people hate a true American hero who wants to clean corruption out of our government. Very unbecoming to the left, I must say. The problems with McCain's support mostly come from the right wing of the party. They've done a lot of damage to the Rep party and to our country and I personally will directly blame the right wing if Obama wins. Of course, there's corruption in both parties, so McCain has a hard time getting a break from any of the establishment. I agree with you that the appropriate audience should be the middle voting block. Thankfully though, many many millions of Americans are opposed to Obama's socialist form of government. We'll just have to see how the voter fraud plays out.
A few months ago, I saw a bumper sticker I kinda like ... it said, "The right is wrong, the left is stupid." I don't think I'd use the word "stupid" but if I was a bumper sticker kinda person, that's probably similar to something I'd put on my car. I'm more what people label as a Constitutional conservative.
Good to see you again, Melkor! And thank you for the comment - I love your comments! Have a wonderful weekend!