Objectification Of Johns: The Hidden Angle

i read your story with great interest in the beginning and by the end i was overwhelmed with a mixture of anger at your views as well as a sadness for you if this is the kind of thing you truly believe.
I will explain to you how many, many young women get into this trade one of the more common ways i have seen by a very well established pimp was to meet the girls in the usual places malls, school, near known group homes befriend them and after a certain wooing period they would be made aware of his true intentions and for girls that did not comply willingly they were mostly beat with a red hot coat hanger that had been straightened out. Some were just gang raped the first time to help them "adjust to that much traffic" (read servicing that many clients in a night) i have seen younger girls with a certain amount of spunk who really wanted to get away chained to beds. I have seen clusters of 14,15,16 year olds huddled around coffee tables terrified, mascara running and wishing they could go back home for now they realize it was not that bad. I am unsure of how when they then went out on the street to make their money they "objectified men"
I was never "owned" or pimped through a series of events that played in my favor but the great majority of women who are i am sure did not look at the men they "tricked" as just the money, they were the only way some of these women could stay alive. You also seem to down play the real fear that these women go through every time they meet a client ( let me tell you your friend who worked one month a year has absolutly NO idea what it is really like out there) i have had bad dates of which i will not write the specifics for my children read this site but i will say i had to develop a mistrust of men to make sure i stay alive, how many johns do you know that have been murdered? I admit some may have been robbed but is that comparable to a woman who looses her life? My other question is why is the ownness not being put on him to worry about his health? STD's? I am absolutly astounded by your assertion that we should somehow actually emotionally engage with each of our johns, that we do not respect them or value them !!
What do you want for us to keep little cards on each date so we can reference back to out last date to make him feel important!!?? Half the time the only conversation is about price and even then they almost always haggle about the price or pull some "oh look i'm short"stunt when you get to your spot..... yup i am definatly feeling amorous by that and it should definatly be my responsibility to set the mood and worry about him...... ARE YOU INSANE
You talk about how selfish this whole this is, Here is how i see it a huge majority of women are coerced, forced and beaten into this trade, you then say they go out and take advantage of a john and his weakness, when really all she is doing is trying to avoid a beating and make enough money to go home( your not allowed home in some stables until you make a certain amount) she then has to engage in an act with a stranger who could potentially beat her, hurt her, tryin to stay sane while she is doing the act and then go out there and do it all over again.......... how is she the one who is taking advantage of anyone?
i find you last line interesting
"Remember. Guns don't kill. Selfishness does."you my friend have never looked down the barrel of a .38, or listened to your own bones crack because of someone else's actions
um, no i would say the pimp or boyfriend with the fists and coat hangers hurt so does the john that bloodied your face i think a little selfishness is just self preservation.

So help me, I swear that I am a "women who can't read" magnet.

My opening comments made it _clear_ that I was discussing _only_ those women who willingly become prostitutes / strippers. I made it _clear_ that I was excluding from this article the people who have been and are forced to be prostitutes.

As for Heather's comment "The main thing I have a problem with is Mr. Smith's ultimate assertion that women are to be blamed for their own demise and could have somehow avoided their end."

For all readers, it's been an interesting trip to see what assumptions / inferences Heather will come up with next. Every time I submit an article, I look forward to what part of her character and personality and perspective will be exposed in response to what I've written.

Responsibility and blame are close relatives but not twins.

Any woman who meets men to exchange something as precious as their beauty and their intimacy, knowing how potentially dangerous their meeting may be are no more to blame for their death than is a tight rope walker who falls or a person who, as a dare-devil publicity stunt, devises a craft to go over the Niagara Falls or a bomb-squad member who's job it is to disarm explosive devices. If a death results subsequent to what they're doing, it's not a matter of blame.

The person, tho, DOES have a degree of responsibility, especially considering that they're all going at their work with their eyes open, knowing that their profession is high-risk.

Blame ? No. Accountability / responsibility ? Yes. SOLE accountability / responsibility ? No for the women who willingly prostitute and who are murdered but none-the-less, they do have a degree of responsibility.

What Heather has done so consistently is to draw illogical conclusions / asssumptions about what I believe or intend and/or have written and then she attributes her own assumptions to me and says they're my "ultimate assertion".

I'm beginning to think that Heather holds men in general in contempt because it appears from what she's written in her responses to my articles that she's attributing to me characteristics of other men she's met or known or experienced. I've not quite figured out this particular complexity in her life and probably never will but it's sad to see symptoms of a wounded person pulsing thru the lines of what she types.

I need not "assume" much about her perspective because she states it very clearly when she paints men with a broad brush in her statement "It's about the fact that men are predatory and women are prey".

Only a fool would deny that there are some very predatory men in the world but our society(ies) have no shortage of Black Widow Spiders in the world either. There are no shortage of predatory women "in the industry", tho there's a well defined difference between men who prey on women and kill them and women who simply prey on the man's vulnerabilities sexually so that they can get at his wallet.

Heather's comment above is easily understood to mean "all men are predators and no women are predators" or "no men are prey and all women are prey". ( go into the VIP bar scene in your nearest mega-city and _you_ tell me who the hunters are and who the prey will be !! It'll take a long stretch of imaginative writing to convince me that those women are being forced to objectify themselves and that selfishness is not a key motivation in their actions ).

I'm wondering if NBC and CBS and CBC and other forms of media have the services of this kind of unbiased editor / reporter / correspondent as does Orato.Com

It's now clear to me why Heather has been in the fore-front of those who've jumped to wrong conclusions and assumptions about my position. They're not drawing these conclusions logically but are, by some action that only a psychiatrist could explain, attributing to me the characteristics which they have perhaps experienced in men who have sadly and sefishly impacted their lives and/or the lives of other women they've known.

Trisha stated "I am unsure of how when they then went out on the street to make their money they "objectified men"

Anytime any person selfishly uses another person as a means to an end, they have objectified that person. That girl on the street has little or no concern for the health, well-being and/or emotional disposition of her john nor of any wife and/or kids who may be at home. He is simply the next trick for her ... the next dollar.

He's a means-to-an-end for her. Where men are accused of viewing women as sex objects, women of the street put on the attire of a sex object, act like a sex object, talk like a sex object and become, for that man, their sex object of the moment. At the same time, that man becomes her money object, her drug-of-choice object, her means-to-avoid-another-brutal-beating object. Just as he's not generally interested in what he can do for her as much as in what she can do for him, so also the gal is more interested ( if not exclusively interested ) in what being with him intimately will do for her.

Trisha stated a misconception she has when she stated "the great majority of women who are i am sure did not look at the men they "tricked" as just the money, they were the only way some of these women could stay alive."

Tell that to the women who have escaped from the trade and have turned their lives around, often times with the assistance of individuals and agencies, to say nothing of the women who got their head together, mustered up the will-power and by pulling themselves up by their boot straps, left the streets and by hard work and determination, found success in different fields.

Trisha may beliefe the statement and sadly, many of the girls on the street may be convinced her statement is true but it's not accurate.

In any event, no matter what the "reason" for turning the trick, the gal has, none-the-less, objectified the male, if not for money, then for the reason Trisha mentioned & that is "to stay alive".

Trisha admits that some of the johns have been robbed. Again, an example of the objectification of the johns. They're a means to an end. They're not "persons" or "men" or "friends" ... they're not someone for whom the girl has any feelings or emotions or concern, nor respect. They're generally men who are distained & loathed by the girls who look at the men for their money (which is totally in line with what many married and faithful men experience when they find that their wives have run up their credit card bills on shopping sprees. See here the many faces of selfishness.)

Trisha states " ... i had to develop a mistrust of men to make sure i stay alive ... ". Now that doesn't come as any surprise. Your johns were acting in an untrustworthy manner. They were doing something illegal. They were acting selfishly. It's wise to mistrust THOSE men. I respectfully suggest to you that if you had not keep company with men who're so well known for their selfishness and for the fact that they ARE untrustworthy, you would not be saying "I HAD to develop ... ". You would not have HAD to develop the distrust. It was REASONABLE to distrust _those_ men. Any reasonable person SHOULD distrust _those_ men and shouldn't have to "develop" a distrust of them.

Trisha stated "why is the ownness not being put on him to worry about his health? STD's? ".

Ummm ... in civilized society, the owness IS put on the men ... AND the women do as well ... and it's called abstinence before marriage and faithfulness after marriage. The impact on the transmission of STD's is greatly reduced when people remain abstinent till marriage and faithful to their spouse after marriage. The number of people who've acquired STD's when they themselves have had only one sex partner and their spouse has had only one sex partner is almost too small to measure, in comparison to those who've been infected who've not been abstinent / faithful.

Trisha wrote "I am absolutly astounded by your assertion that we should somehow actually emotionally engage with each of our johns, that we do not respect them or value them !!"

That's an interesting statement because I never made any such assertion. Furthermore, I'd be surprise if any hooker / stripper ever made any effort to emotionally engage with ANY of their johns. I would be equally surprised if these professional women had ANY respect for their johns and/or valued them any higher than the size of their bank account & their willingness to trade portions of it for a few minutes with a woman who's faking her pleasure and/or approval of this john.

Trisha went on to say "yup i am definatly feeling amorous by that and it should definatly be my responsibility to set the mood and worry about him...... ARE YOU INSANE".

Well, on the matter of insanity, insanity is like beauty.

Having said that, I would say that I would have to believe that it is almost IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to truly feel amourous. Personally, I can't imagine how any woman in this profession could actually get positive and/or even marginally satisfying feelings or stimuli from such a high-risk, high-stress and so impersonal, unloving & uncaring encounter.

Hope my comments resolve some of your concerns and helps you with your perspective on what it is/was like to be in the profession.

Don't assume too much about how many guns I've had pointed / discharged in my direction nor how many times I've been beaten up. Too many assumptions have already been made about me and about what I've written. We don't need to add to that count.

Tracey, help me here. Is it fact or only opinion that men objectify women by seeing them as sex _objects_ ?

What's wrong with being seen as a sex _object_ ? Does being viewed as a sex _object_ de-humanize the person ? Does it suggest that they've been devalued ? Does it upset women to be someone's sex object ? If so, why does it bother / upset / offend / anger them to be viewed as a sex object ?

Take my challenge and answer each of my questions.

When you've done so, perhaps we can take this discussion to the next level and perhaps, if nothing else, determine if what you refer to as my opinions have any merit.

You've got no idea how close to the industry I've been . Don't join the ranks of those who assume too much about (ahem) this author.

Perhaps you've got some 1st hand experience, tho, and you can tell the interested readers your 1st hand how much of a roll selfishness plays in the decisions of these women on the street. Perhaps you can tell 1st hand how often the johns are reduced in their humanity to a means to an end. Could you do that for us, Tracey ?

You have no idea how blatantly wrong you are in your statement "know how it feels to be looked upon as disposable". Your assumptions should embarass you. If you knew the truth, you would be embarassed.

Having said that, let me toss another word into the ring. The word is "profane". The word "profane" is from a word which means "to make common".

One of the saddest facts about the life of so many of these women is that their beauty, their privacy, their souls have been "profaned". Whereas women should be cherished and valued highly, these women, by the nature of their profession, have been "profaned" ... they have been made "common" ... they have indeed been devalued to the point where it is easy to understand why any would consider them disposable.

There's an old proverb which refers to "as a gem in a pigs snout, so is a woman who lacks discretion".

Just as a gem does not belong in a pig's snout, so also women don't belong on the streets, making common the precious nature of their beauty, their sexuality, their intimacy and there very souls.

Again I say that the laws to prosecute anyone who would violate a woman's privacy as has happened to so many of these women on the street are NOT adequate. The consequences for the hate crimes against women of the street are not adequate. I'm not sure that there's a punishment that could be imposed on them which could compensate for the infinite damage they have done to the hearts, souls & lives not only of these women but of the parents of these girls, as well as other family members.

All that having been said, if the girls in the business over-look the degree to which they are selfish and dishonest ( even if it _is_ in the name of self-preservation ) and the degree to which many of them _do_ objectify their johns, then they are in no position to moan, groan and shed crock tears over how they are themselves objectified.

The sex trade, as it is so affectionately called in politically-correct-ease, is, from its inception, a selfish business. It is fueled with self-centered thoughts, words and actions. It is a miserable way to spend one's life and to expend their dignity, their virtue, their very souls.

I can't get over how the girls in the business take such offense to being compared to the johns. Both are engaged in a practice that, deep down inside, the know is wrong. Both are taking advantage of the other so that their self-centered needs and wants can be addressed. Both are selling themselves short. Both of them are devaluaing themselves. Both of them are objectifying themselves far more than any other on-looker can do. Both of them seem shocked that society looks upon them as society does, as tho they're surprised that they would be seen as common and even disposable.

If ever there was a person who looks upon another creature as disposable, it's a woman of the trade. She knows that tricks are a dime a dozen. She holds her tricks in the lowest of regard and she could care less if she ever saw the john again if it weren't for the hope that he would return with more money.

It is sad to see how many in the sex trade have exchanged for money something as priceless as their bodies, their beauty, their souls, their peace of mind and sadly and too often their very lives.

It is sad to see how many women plunge into depression and self-loathing and drug abuse and too often to suicide as a result of their lifestyle and as a result of the choices they've made.

No, I'm not far more afraid of the gun. I'm still more afraid of the man-hating woman who's pointing it at me. The gun will, by itself, never hurt me.

Women in the trade will find that there's only one thing that'll truly give them peace and satisfaction, filling the inner void, and that is LOVE. They'll probably never find it on the streets.

Here's hoping more of them will find their way to an inner-city mission where many women have discovered that there is a way to leave the life on the streets and to begin a life of love that really matters.

I'm beginning to think you _know_ the answers to my questions and resent the fact that the answers you know agree with what I'm saying ... and that you just don't have the character to admit it.

When the going gets tough, Tracey, then the tough get going. Sorry you've going. Sorry you've don't have what it takes to stay in nor to answer my questions nor counter my comments.

I'm happy to see that there are other women who resent living in a male dominated world and that they're willing to stand up and fight for what's right. I'm happy to know that some women don't give in so easily to men nor back down from them as you have here.

They'll be disappointed to see that you've not got what it takes to make it.

Hope you'll think better of such a speedy exit and jump right back in and make this discussion everything it can be. If you won't do it for yourself, then do it for the other women who need a positive roll model of what it takes to stay in for the long haul. To exit would be to further fuel men's idea that women can't take it and will further add fuel to any perception that women are easy to push around.

If you can't stand up to me here and logically answer my questions & comments, how on earth are you going to make it in real life ... out there ... in that hostile male dominated world in which you live ? You've gotta start somewhere or you'll be part of the propogation of the Myth that men are stronger than women, better than women, etc ... and that women are easy to get to back down. ( ergo: the myth which suggests "no wonder women are preyed upon cuz they're easy prey". )

I'm also happy that my wife has more of a back bone and greater intellect honesty than some of the respondants here in Orato appear to have. ( for the record, she's my intellectual superior and I've no problems saying so. )

I'm hoping that other women like my wife, who read these articles and comments, will jump in and show what REAL women are like. This forum is desperately in need of comments from women with character, strength, integrity and honesty.

Allan, unfortunately, once users post a story, they are not able to edit it. I can make changes for you, time permitting, as I have done.

Hi Allan, I thought this article was very good - it sounded a bit preachy, but that comes with the territory I guess.

Selfishness *is* the root of so many problems, at the same time there's wise selfishness and there's un-wise selfishness.

There's self-concern, that encompasses others, and there's the opposite, an exclusive regard for one-self. I think people who are in states of extreme suffering however, do not have the ability or choice to expand their circle of caring and love.

This is really sad, and it's up to individuals who do have that ability to embrace them, and give them the environment and opportunity to have at least the basic conditions externally and internally, that all of us "regular" folks enjoy.